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Episode 5
Getty Curator Casey Lee and Artist Marilyn Minter

  • 2 min read

Episode Description

1:30 - Getty Museum curator Casey Lee discusses “Artists as Collectors”, an exhibition exploring how artists accumulated, cared for, and used drawings by other artists that they avidly collected, on view at the Getty Center through September 12, 2021

14:54 - Photographer and painter Marilyn Minter about her examination of female strength and sexuality from the perspective of a female eye. Minter’s work is in the collections of the Tate Modern, Guggenheim, MoMA, MOCA, SFMoMA, MFA Boston and the Whitney, while commercial commissions has brought her imagery into the mainstream. She is the beneficiary of a Louis Comfort Tiffany Grant and a Guggenheim Fellowship, as well as an honorary doctorate from the School for the Visual Arts in New York.

37:45 - The week's top art headlines


Craig: [00:00:10] This is Art Sense, a podcast focused on educating and informing listeners about the past, present and future of art. I'm Craig Gould. First off this week is my conversation with Getty Museum curator Casey Lee discussing artists as collectors. An exhibition exploring how artists accumulated, cared for and used drawings by other artists that they avidly collected on view at the Getty Center through September 12 and Segment two. I speak to photographer and painter Marilyn Minter about her examination of female strength and sexuality from the perspective of a female eye. Minter's work is in the collections of the Tate Modern, Guggenheim, MoMA, MOCA as SFMOMA, MFA Boston in the Whitney. While commercial commissions have brought her imagery into the mainstream, she's the beneficiary of a Louis Comfort Tiffany Grant and a Guggenheim Fellowship, as well as an honorary doctorate from the School of the Visual Arts in New York. At the end of the episode, I'll be wrapping things up with some of the week's top art headlines. But first up, artists as collectors.

Craig: [00:01:30] Joining us today to to talk about your exhibit there at the Getty Museum, artists as collectors and so can you give us kind of an overview of the exhibition?

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Casey: [00:01:41] Sure, Craig, and thanks for having me. So artists, collectors, it's an exhibition that looks into the collecting practices of artists from the 16th to the 19th century, and it specifically focuses on drawings, which holds a pretty special place within artist collections. Drawings is an essential part of the creative process is a way for us to work on the idea. It's how they record observations, relay information and is just something you do for its own sake. Artists kept drawings pretty close at hand, usually in their workshop or studios, and when artists died, their workshops were dispersed. And it is possible to see how teachers would give their favorite pupils drawings as sort of a continuation of their legacy. Drawings were a sort of trade secret. Artists were among the first group of people to collect drawings, initially because of professional motivations. Drawings were a vehicle for knowledge, and as they said, they were pretty carefully guarded that a market began to develop in the 16th century and the practice became more widespread and collections became more varied. And so this exhibition highlights some important artists collectors. It looks at how these collections were built, how they were used and how they were displayed.

Craig: [00:02:52] So what was the genesis of the project? So was it your idea to put together this exhibit?

Casey: [00:02:59] Yeah. So it actually comes much further before my time at the Getty. It actually comes from my dissertation research, which was on Dutch seventeenth century artists as there of prints and drawings. And that project actually began because of my interest in Rembrandt, and Rembrandt was a passionate collector of prints and drawings, and I was just really interested in thinking about what artists owned and how their possessions informs their profession.

Craig: [00:03:25] So are all of the drawings in the exhibit from the Getty's collection?

Casey: [00:03:29] Yes, all the drawings on view are from the Getty's permanent collection of drawings.

Craig: [00:03:34] And how big is that? I my my in my imagination. You guys have a pretty extensive collection of these sorts of drawings.

Casey: [00:03:42] Our collection was actually pretty small in terms of drawing collections or works on paper collections. We have almost a thousand sheets, but we're also a pretty young collection. We started in nineteen eighty one and our first drawing was a Rembrandt drawing. It's the nude woman with the snake, and it's actually on view in the exhibition

Craig: [00:04:01] As a museum. What do you guys see as your main responsibility for the collection in terms of being a steward? Or are you do you think of yourselves more from a conservation or an education or exhibition? Or maybe it's all of the above. What is your main charge as a museum in terms of caring for this collection?

Casey: [00:04:24] I would say it's all of the above, and I think education has a great overlap between conservation and exhibition. The Getty has a really great team of curators, conservators, registrars, art handlers, and we all kind of work together to make sure that the collection is preserved and that we're also able to share it. So for drawing specifically because they're light sensitive objects, we share them through rotations and they're also fairly short run just because they are light sensitive. We also have a steady room, and under normal circumstances, visitors can come at any time and request to see things that aren't on the walls. We also have all of our collection online, so if you're not able to see things in person, you can just go to the website.

Craig: [00:05:11] So did these artists, did they actually put the work on the walls or were they more pragmatic? Was it more of a tool of study, something that they would take out of flat files and make reference to and take inspiration from?

Casey: [00:05:25] It's a little bit of both, but it's mostly the latter. So artists would use these works as a reference material. When you're training young pupils, what they would do is first encourage you to learn how to copy and master other people's styles and techniques so you would be copying prints, you would be copying drawings. And then as you matured as an artist, you would use these repositories to come back for ideas. But it's also a very social practice. Artists would be part of these social clubs, and they would invite other people over and take out drawings and discuss their formal qualities, their subject matter. I think one of my favorite is Paul Samba was known to have these really wonderful gatherings and one of the objects in his collection or is a few drawings by the sari. And that's in the exhibition. And you can just imagine a group of artists standing around looking at these works, sipping wine and talking about it.

Craig: [00:06:25] Since you are the expert on Rembrandt and his his collection, which. So what did his collection consist of, what was he looking at? I mean, was he using these drawings in much the same way that you've discussed here and in what was in his collection? Was it was it dour or or who it was?

Casey: [00:06:44] It was also a lot of Italian artists, and he was looking at this at drawings of prints as well. And what's really interesting is what we know a little bit about the contents of this collection because he went bankrupt in the fifties and there's an inventory of his household, and we think he was there just because of the specificity of how some of these objects were described. He talks about having albums dedicated to the best masters of the world, and so he was looking at like Antonio Tempesta, Rafael, Antonio Raimondi and then some Dutch artists as well. Lucas Green Lantern in particular, was a particular was a favorite of his.

Craig: [00:07:25] So are there drawings from his collection that we actually have provenance going all the way back to that liquidation?

Casey: [00:07:33] Unfortunately, not at the Getty. What we do have instead, is something that's a bit more tangential. So Rembrandt had a huge studio and he had many pupils. Among those pupils is an artist named Gilbert Klink, and Klink was also known to have a pretty large collection of prints and drawings. And then, when he died, got collected and passed on to his son. Nicholas Flink and Nicholas Klink sold all of his prints because he was really more interested in drawings, and we have drawings from that collection instead. So you kind of see this sort of trajectory and influence of Rembrandt through how he inspires subsequent generations, either directly or indirectly.

Craig: [00:08:16] Well, I was going through the catalog of the exhibit online yesterday, and one piece really caught my eye and that was a piece by angry Madame Watsa. And it's a really compelling portrait and just poked around on the line a little bit. And it looked like it was probably a preparatory sketch for a portrait that's at the National Gallery in D.C.. Can you tell me a little bit about that piece?

Casey: [00:08:38] Yeah, sure. So you're correct. It is a preparatory study for a portrait that's in D.C. It actually did two portraits of this woman. He the other one's in the National Gallery in London. And so this one was his second attempt at finishing this portrait. And he finished that one and then returned to the other portrait gallery. It's a bit complicated. That's OK. So when he finished, that first finished the portrait, that's at the National Gallery. He gave some of his drawings to the subjects family. And so this is where Digong comes in. They've got the impressionist painter. Edgar De was completely enamored with thing. He was very inspired by his work. Decor had what he called the three great craftsmen, all French artists, and they were dell'acqua, and it actually met a number of times and became this sort of mythical personage in de life. And they got made great efforts to collect his work. He actually ended up with something like 20 paintings and several drawings. And they actually tracked down the Monticello family and went to visit them and was able to acquire this drawing so that drawing.

Craig: [00:10:02] I was looking at the scale of it. I assume that's probably kind of the final scale of the portrait in the painting. Is that about right? I mean, it seems like it's probably about the size of a person's face. Is that is that about right?

Casey: [00:10:15] Yeah, that's about right. It's a it's a two scale drawing of a woman's face who is described as something like a great and terrible beauty.

Craig: [00:10:27] I'm not sure that's a compliment or a put down, but so, so tell me in the course of researching this exhibit, is there an artist that you feel like you understand a little bit better as a result of seeing what they collected?

Casey: [00:10:40] Well, what I really enjoyed about working on this exhibition is that it's a continuous dialog between the artist, the object and the artist who created the work and the collectors that came before them. So each one kind of provides new insights. One that will work. That I found really fascinating is are drawing by permission, you know, of the study of two holy families. And it's it's weird. It's kind of one complete drawing. And then you flip it and it's another try at the same subject. It kind of looks like a like a playing card, like a king or part sort of thing. Mm hmm. And so this was owned by the English artist Jonathan Richardson, senior, and he decided that one orientation was the correct orientation being now to. Is drawing on his signature mount, which has some ground framing lines and a gold border. And then subsequent collectors were like, Yeah, this makes sense to me, and they put their marks in this in the same orientation and then Benjamin West comes along and he's like, I'm not really sure about this. It actually marks it on both sides, along for the fact that the artist's permission didn't necessarily think that one orientation was correct. We're going with Jonathan Richardson, senior, but that's like a little detail that I love to do, because these drawings aren't necessarily always stuck on a wall. They were something you could pull out, turn around, flip over.

Craig: [00:12:06] Sure. Yeah. I've seen some work before displayed in a way where it's kind of sandwiched between two panes of glass and kind of displayed upright to be able to see what's going on both ways. But that's an interesting, interesting dilemma there. So Casey, how much longer is the exhibit running?

Casey: [00:12:24] So the exhibit is running through September.

Craig: [00:12:27] The exhibits open May twenty fifth is up until September 12th, and that's at the J. Paul Getty Museum.

Casey: [00:12:35] Correct. Yes, I was at the center. That one.

Craig: [00:12:39] Got it. Well, Casey, it's really been a pleasure talking with you today. And I really

Casey: [00:12:44] Appreciate your time and encourage folks to see.

Craig: [00:12:53] So before I received my Canvia, I had seen a number of videos online of people trying to figure out whether the image on a Canvia was a painting or a digital image. The people were sincere, but kept guessing that Canvia display was an actual painting. I think it's OK to say I was a little skeptical. I mean, after all, I've seen my share of paintings, but then my Canvia showed up and I started to go through the artwork and I could see what they meant. Not only does the full HD display provide incredible detail, but the device actually samples the light in the room and makes the image look as though it's the real deal. It doesn't look backlit, and because it's sampling the light in the room, the artwork takes on the warmth or coolness of the light. I remember that first night I pulled up a painting of a pair of street scenes that had really thick brushstrokes that US painters refer to as impasto paint was so thick you could see little shadows in those shadows lined up with the lamp next to my Canvia, and it really did look just like a real painting. All this was made possible because of Canvia commitment to being the leader in display technology. The whole system that samples the lighting conditions in your space to heighten your viewing experience is a patented technology called art science. And you may remember me talking about leaving the same image up on my Canvia for days. Well, I can do that because Canvia has a patent on technology that uses something called stochastic modeling to prevent image burn. This way, I can look at Gustav Klimt's Judith with the head of of Furnace as long as I want. I love my Canvia and I think you will, too. So if you want to learn more about Canvia, head over to Canvia Dot Art and check it out now. A conversation with Marilyn Minter about feminism, sexuality and her love of enamel.

Craig: [00:14:53] Marilyn Minter, it's a real pleasure to have you on the broadcast. I've been following and admiring your work for years and thank you for being willing to sit down and have a discussion about your body of work and in your career.

Marilyn: [00:15:07] Oh, thank you.

Craig: [00:15:08] So, you know, I like to sometimes have artists kind of start with this. Say you're at a dinner party or if you're run into somebody at the grocery store and they say, What do you do? And you say an artist? How do you describe your work to someone who's never seen your work before?

Marilyn: [00:15:27] I don't. I don't. I basically say, Oh, you know, it's pretty hard to describe. I think probably the best if you want to know what I do. Just look, look, look up. You know, and then it's easier if you see a picture of it, because I could explain to you, it's really a visual. Yeah, that's what I say to the strangers. It's really a visual thing. It's not a it's not a verbal description, right? And it's it's a lot easier. I could talk to you about what I do. If you if you if you just take a picture, look on Google. Certainly, it sounds so that's also pretentious Google me, but I try and say that in a polite way.

Craig: [00:16:12] Well, you know, we're all on Instagram where it's a visual endeavor to have.

Marilyn: [00:16:16] Yeah. Who doesn't have access to visit visual imagery? Right. It's too hard to describe verbally. It's impossible, actually. Yeah.

Craig: [00:16:25] And you know, I guess in a way, it is an unfair question because, you know, I've asked artists this and you know, some of them will say, Well, that's the reason I paint because I can't I can't put it in words. That's the reason I make the visual image right.

Marilyn: [00:16:40] I feel that way, too. I really hate have to talk, you know, asking people, what, well, what are you thinking here? You know, the whole idea is for you to come up with what you what are you thinking here? What you know? What is the strike? My whole, you know, race on Dennis to have a viewer see what I'm doing is say, Oh, I know that. I know it's the truth, you know, and maybe I've never seen it before, but I know that something that exists,

Craig: [00:17:06] You know, tell me your work. You know, as everyone's work, it's evolved over time. And when you first got to New York, you were making work that was totally different, right?

Marilyn: [00:17:16] Yes, totally. Yes, I was right out of school and I thought of myself as a conceptual photo realist. And then I went around to different galleries and they said, Oh yeah, you're a photo realist, but a really boring one.

Craig: [00:17:30] Well, that's the risk of conceptualism, right?

Marilyn: [00:17:32] Yeah, yeah. And I thought I was really funny or amusing. You know, I was painting black and white photographs on the floor or, you know, on and they just like, Oh, who cares? You know, it was like poetic realism at that point in time was actually shiny and very flashy, you know, marbles and pinball machines. And you know, it was really it was just kind of it was the popular form of it was that if you looked at the photorealistic painting, it looks just like a photo. And that was the remarkable part, right? It looked just like a photo. And what I did was I took photos I took. I actually took Polaroids even and painted them on a table or on a floor or like the white photos in, you know, I just made them a little bigger because at that time, color photography was not as prevalent. This was in the 70s, really right around the time Mickelson had his Big Color show at MoMA, right? So black and white was what you learned. You didn't even learn color in school. Right?

Craig: [00:18:45] Was there a particular turning point? You know, I mean, when I think of your work today, I really think of the female form. I wouldn't say hypersexual, but sexuality in the female form are two words that are in feminism or all three terms that are usually go along with Marilyn Minter. Is there a particular point?

Marilyn: [00:19:04] That's true. Yeah. You know, I really didn't think in terms of women, the images women would actually decide to work on work with, you know, and when you started to actually study women painters. The first one I ever studied was Mary Cassatt, who worked with mother mothers as a mother and mother and children. You know, together and I was in my whole gig really is about female agency. What do we own? What do we get to own? I just did that show and play about women bathers. And it was, you know, what is what does it look like to, you know, the bather in all of our history has always been. For the soft core porn, which I don't know, no problem with softcore porn, but it was just this kind of voyeuristic moment of, you know, Apollo discovering Daphne in the stream right up into, you know, Dagar women's bathing and tubs or boners, you know, the women and always in the bathtub. And I thought, there's so many images of women grooming. What does it look like when a female artist makes pictures of women grooming women, bathing women, combing their hair, women playing with their hair in in a shower? And then I worked with unconventional looking women. You know, not these skinny white girls. All necessarily, you know, big breasted dark women. And, you know, for instance, I'm working on on this whole series of Olympia's with our unconventional bodies, you know, big women instead of, you know, oh, what we think of as Olympia, which was a shocking painting at the time. Because because she was a bold woman who just said, you know, she was basically a prostitute. It wasn't at all ashamed of her nakedness. Right. And there was this whole voyeuristic or Peeping Tom aspect of the women bathing that are doing the opposite of sure, if that makes any sense.

Craig: [00:21:17] Yeah, it does. And it's interesting this whole conversation. You know, our episode of the podcast last week, I was speaking with Jennifer Higgie, who,

Marilyn: [00:21:26] Yeah, I love her, right? And she wrote the essay from my catalog. Oh, that's

Craig: [00:21:30] Wow. I didn't even know that this is the conversation we were having with Jennifer Hickey. She just wrote the book The Mirror and the Pallette about 500 years of women.

Marilyn: [00:21:39] I know I have to read that.

Craig: [00:21:40] Yeah. And so I mean, it's very much exactly the same thing. The art world has always kind of force fed us the images of the female form male artist. And so what does it look like when a woman takes on that? You know, that composition

Marilyn: [00:21:56] The male gaze? Is there a female gaze? You know, we're all used to the male gaze and and we're all used to the male gaze in sexuality. And so my hope is that, like I said, is what does it look like when when women are the are not the subject, but the agents? You know, we are in the form of production for our own amusement and our own pleasure. Right.

Craig: [00:22:23] So let me ask you this in your work is the sexuality. Has it ever intended to shock? Or is it merely providing that agency?

Marilyn: [00:22:33] No, I never stuns me that anyone thinks I was trying to be shocking. But but, you know, I think in the 90s, in the 80s, when I switched to working with sexual imagery, they never no one ever saw women working with it. It was like such A. It was like the feminist, which I thought of myself as one. It was verboten. Sexuality was verboten in those days, like there was all this women against pornography and there was a kind of political correctness in the era. And I just thought I was a protected feminist, which everyone I knew was. And I think when I use when I wanted to see, well, what does it change? The meaning if a woman is the producer of sexual imagery, does that change the meaning? And I asked these questions and I didn't have answers, and I didn't have answers condemning sexuality, which was the prevailing feminist thinking. It was the I was a very small minority, not knowing that and the fact that I was just asking the questions. I think I was taking an abuse of history and reclaiming it. And that was a new vision about women. Women just didn't do things like that, and it's still sort of like that today. I was young enough that I was still in that category of a young girl working with sexuality. I think once put your post-menopausal, you can do anything. No one gives a shit, you know? I always think about that picture of Robert Mapplethorpe took of Louise Bourgeois with a giant dildo and how adorable she looks. Everyone thinks he's so cute because if you're young and working with sexuality, it's threatening. It's so threatening to the to to the status quo, which I think is fascinating. And I'd love to see more people exploring that. Why is that? Why is it? Why is it so scary to have a young woman working with sexual imagery?

Craig: [00:24:46] So let me ask you about your models. It seems like some of the. Models you've worked with recently that are of the more celebrity kind of embody some of that when you think of like Lady Gaga or Lizzo. Do you reach out to these people? Or is it just kind of an organic thing where you, you meet and you figure out that?

Marilyn: [00:25:08] Well, I guess, you know, I get asked to do portraits of people for different various publications, and most of the time, I'm not interested, but I'm totally interested in Gaga. She's changed, you know, music and Lizzo to, you know, and they both really own sexuality. And so I say yes, right? I've had to do those people. So Gaga was just, you know, the New York Times wanted me to do a cover story on her on on the magazine, New York Times magazine. And that just evolved and said, I made I'm making a painting of her right now, and I'm doing Lizzo, too. How did you even know you knew about that?

Craig: [00:25:54] I have my sources, right?

Marilyn: [00:25:56] Yeah, but I'm putting I'm making Lizzo my Olympia.

Craig: [00:25:59] Oh, that's wonderful. That's awesome.

Marilyn: [00:26:02] But I haven't sought her yet because of the coronavirus. I was supposed to shoot her last March. But, you know, I couldn't even fly until a couple of months ago. Weeks ago? Yeah.

Craig: [00:26:14] But you were able to make it to Paris.

Marilyn: [00:26:16] I made it to Nice.

Craig: [00:26:18] Oh, I'm sorry.

Marilyn: [00:26:19] Yeah. Well, actually Paris to Montpellier. But it was, you know, you got to. I had a COVID test right before the same getting COVID test at Versailles to come back to the United States. You still can't come to the United States from Europe unless you're an American citizen. And you know, now I can fly to L.A., but I'm hoping I could shoot Lizzo here because all my equipment's here, everything I need to do. So I'm sort of waiting for her to come here as if I have to. I could set it up in L.A.. Sure, it's a big shoot, you know,

Craig: [00:26:56] So I know in my mind it was about a decade ago, you did a number of paintings where the collector, Amy Phelan, actually

Marilyn: [00:27:05] Amy was my was my model. Yeah, well,

Craig: [00:27:08] Almost like she was your muse there for

Marilyn: [00:27:10] Which is really true. I could not find somebody with lips like her. They were, you know, she had these great lips. She has these great lips. And I was a total unknown. This was, I guess, you know, I I didn't have any. I mean, I could say I'd like to shoot somebody and they'd say, Who are you? You know, I don't know you from Adam. So they would just say no. And if I stop someone, if I saw somebody who had a mouth that I was looking for and my art dealer in and now Colorado here, Harley Baldwin said, I have the perfect model for you. Because he knew I was looking for somebody with her bout with that kind of mouth. And I just made a whole bunch of photos and paintings from using Amy's. He was a real good sport.

Craig: [00:28:05] And so that was during a period where you were really zooming in on, you know, particular areas right?

Marilyn: [00:28:15] I zoom, yeah, I mean, even it's really hard for me to go as far. I think it was once I. I'm doing a few whole bodies for the first time right now, but even there, they're a little bit cut off the top of the head or one of the legs. But I am. I really love ups. It's like why? How my vision is really. But to create the Olympia, I have to get the whole pretty much a lot of the body in the frame. It's hard for me actually, right?

Craig: [00:28:49] When you were doing those zoomed in pieces, is that when you first started getting into utilizing Photoshop?

Marilyn: [00:28:55] Well, as soon as I actually know, I started using Photoshop as soon as it was available to me, I I can draw, so it's easy for me to to change things just by drawing it. But once I learned Photoshop, it was like 1000 times easier. And so then I started combining things like paintings of fingers and toes, you know, combined. Or if I wanted a neck really long, I just extended it in Photoshop from my photos. So it was just a way to it's a tool that basically a tool that I've been using it ever since. And and now I'm really extreme with it at this point. We're really good at it. And you know, I I learned it really well when it first came out, but at this point, I. People that are so much better than me, they wipe the floor with me, I let them do it now, and I just tell them what I want.

Craig: [00:29:58] That's a question I've always wanted to ask you is exactly what that relationship is like working with your team. How does that process, you know? I'm sure you're there conceptually and you hand things off. You get them back. You add on top of them.

Marilyn: [00:30:13] Yeah, it's really, well, collaborative process. It's really I've been working with the same people for years and it's just a, you know, a certain kinds of people, only certain kinds of people can do this kind of painting. I invented this technique and it's translucent layers of enamel paint, and there's an underpinning that takes a long time to lay down. And I don't do that part anymore. I just do the finishing. And but we have I have six the same six people I've worked with for some of them fifteen years, one of them 20 over twenty years. So I see like their skill set. So sometimes that will be somebody who's really good with something sparkly. They go in that one area, I'll put them in that area, that kind of thing. But we all work on everything, everybody. And the paintings are layers and layers that take a year to do. Oh gosh. But you can't tell in reproduction. You have to really see them in person.

Craig: [00:31:20] I mean, that was going to be my next question was my understanding is that enamel? It sounds like no one else dares work with this material that you've chosen, but it sounds like the end product is almost like a candy like surface, like, like, you know, fresh nails.

Marilyn: [00:31:39] It's richer than oil or acrylic. And I work with PMK white collar a lot, not just primaries. So it's we work with digital color a lot. I use this proper purple in all kinds of things, and it's just kind of a richness and a texture and a deepness that I can get because it's translucent. Like if I have a really dark color underneath it comes through on. It's there's a it's we actually sit here and think of ourselves as sounds crazy, though, but like really thin sculptures. So this is a really deep, deep, deep, dark purple at the very back of the, let's say, a mouse painting. Mm hmm. And then there's like the steam on top where you're breathing into this piece of glass. So it comes from this way way deep color all the way to these really light colors of beads of water from from breathing right on a piece of glass. So it's it's it's like you have to actually have the kind of patience or you have this kind of therapeutic repetition that's very satisfying that only certain people can do. It's not about gestural things at all. It's building sounds crazy, but we think of ourselves as little sculptors. Oh, sure. Very thin sculptors. Oh no, no.

Craig: [00:33:12] But there's there's there is a still a long history of of artists who built up layers of glazing

Marilyn: [00:33:20] To get to this. It's like a 21st century form of of glazing, and no one can, you know, enamel, so no one really copies it, right? It's like, I sort of, you know, invented it with this enamel. It's really hard to copy. You know, I don't see I haven't seen anyone like making enamel paintings like mine. It's usually when anyone works in enamel, they work with one hard layer next to another, like Wright or Joyce Venkata. You know, she's the other one. But Chris, will, you know, not that many. Gary Hume, not too many of us working there now.

Craig: [00:33:55] How do you choose which pieces are purely photographs versus which ones get converted into paintings?

Marilyn: [00:34:03] The ones that are photographs are really simple. I don't have to do anything to them, crop them. That's the most I'll do.

Craig: [00:34:11] So they're they're too perfect to to need to be.

Marilyn: [00:34:14] Yeah, I wouldn't. Yeah, never paint it. Yeah. Why bother? And they're like drawings for a traditional artists. My photos, like with paintings, or sometimes there's 80 layers of Photoshop, right? Oh God. Yeah, it's never. It's never just one. It's like, I'm doing these portraits now. And you know, I mean, I take or the bathers. I took nipples from other shoots. That's how much these are. These are Frankenstein people, right? So it's really sandwich. Of Out of negative,

Craig: [00:34:55] So your current exhibit is is at the Montpellier Contemporain and that is the bather pieces is how many pieces are installed there? Is it

Marilyn: [00:35:06] About 15? Ok? And they're working on these bathers for years. Yeah. And then the other half of it is the Tompkins and hers are all the, you know, fuck paintings, and we're really look great together. I have to first of all, black and white mine are all in color, and we took over the whole museum. And I don't really think in this country they could do this show. It's not the France. Nobody bats an eye, but they'll give Betty a show and they'll give me a show. But they would never combine us, I think, in this country. Not yet, anyway. Maybe someday. All right.

Craig: [00:35:40] So Marilyn, if folks wanted to to keep track of you and what's on the horizon, you have that show. Are there any other shows coming up here domestically in the U.S. that folks should keep an eye on?

Marilyn: [00:35:53] I'm in group shows and then I have a one person show at Salon 94, my New York gallery and that is in '22 and then in '22 I'm doing a solo show in L.A. to at Reagan projects and also want it in Seoul at Lehman Maupin.

Craig: [00:36:13] Wow. It sounds like you're going to be busy 

Marilyn: [00:36:15] Yeah that will be in '22. Yeah.

Craig: [00:36:16] You know, if folks wanted to keep track of you. I think your website is.

Marilyn: [00:36:19] Yeah. Mm sorry. Do I have any shows coming up because we worked so hard to do this one? I haven't even thought what? We're yeah right now that we're just working towards my solo, yeah, part of Yeah, Salon. That's a big one. Yeah. The space is three floors, but yeah, I have the whole whole space.

Craig: [00:36:45] And so the plan is to be able to see Olympia Lizzo at that show.

Marilyn: [00:36:49] Yeah. Well, I don't know. You know, at this point, maybe not. We'll see another Olympia, though. We'll see Olympia Jasmine, actually. Hopefully, if I could choose her by August, because if I don't get if I don't see her by August, then I'm not going to be able to finish it. But it'll be in my next show. It'll be in the L.A. show. 

Craig: [00:37:11] Sure. Well, Marilyn, I really treasure this time that I've had to talk with you today. I think our listeners will really be intrigued and entertained by our conversation.

Marilyn: [00:37:21] Oh, Thank you Craig.

Craig: [00:37:21] And I really, I really appreciate you joining me.

Marilyn: [00:37:25] Okay, thank you so much and good luck.

[00:37:27] All right. Thank you. You have a great day.

[00:37:37] And now the news.

Craig: [00:37:43] Damien Hirst, who along with Jeff Koons, has served as the poster boys for Art World, Excess Greed and capitalism is back in the news this week. Hirst is in the process of launching a project called The Currency, which is comprised of ten thousand pieces of art, which share the same characteristics as a fiat currency for two thousand. One can purchase one of ten thousand NFTs. Each NFT consists of a photograph of a physical piece of art of colored dots painted on a piece of paper. Each of those pieces is individually numbered, signed and stamped by the artist with a microdot and a hologram of her likeness. Each piece has a title created randomly using artificial intelligence. The buyer purchases the NFT, but has one year to exchange the NFT for the physical piece of art. At the end of that year, any unclaimed physical pieces will be burned. Hurst's is blurring the lines between art and currency, which is the logical next step for the artist, who for years has been mass producing art and large scale factories to capitalize on his brand. Hirst has shocked audiences for years, with bisected animals floating in vats of formaldehyde. The creation and sell of relics from a fake shipwreck and, of course, the $100 million sell of a diamond encrusted platinum skull titled For the Love of God. That sell made quite a splash in 2007, when Hirst announced that he had sold the piece for 50 million pounds to a consortium in a direct cash sell, which, you know, left no paper trail. It was eventually learned that Hirst himself was part of the consortium that bought the artwork.

Craig: [00:39:35] This is not exactly unusual in the art world. Sometimes there are straw buyers that represent the artist or dealer who will buy artworks at auction at a given price. If it looks like the artworks going to sell to someone for a price that will negatively affect the value of other pieces. It's all about maintaining your value in the Twenty Twelve. Time Magazine article, Hirst got around to explaining that what he really sold in two thousand seven was a thirty three percent stake in the piece to an anonymous investor group, so he could cover the fabrication and marketing costs so that $50 million payday wasn't actually a $50 million payday. It was more just breaking, even in the case of the currency. Hirst will stand to make $20 million right off the bat and even more if he decides to keep a number of the pieces for himself and allow the work to appreciate. In a related story, The Hermitage in St Petersburg, Russia is planning to mint and sell NFTs of some of its most famous artworks, making it the first museum of its size and reputation to monetize on its collection through the sale of NFTs. The museum will sell digital copies of Madonna by Leonardo da Vinci, Judith by Georgian Lilac Bush by Vincent van Gogh Composition six by Vasily Kandinsky in corner of the Garden of Moshirian by Claude Monet. Coindesk reports that each NFT will be issued in two copies, one held by the Hermitage itself and the other going to the buyer.

Craig: [00:41:16] The metadata of the NFTs will include Hermitage director Mikhail Piotrowski signature, the time of the signing and the certification that it was signed in the Hermitage. The auction will take place in August on the Binance NFT marketplace. This sell of digital editions of artworks and collections is an interesting alternative to the debate around deaccessioning, which has landed some institutions like the Baltimore Museum of Art in the middle of a PR nightmare. And that might be the reason we're hearing about a feel good story this week from the Baltimore Museum of Art. It was recently announced that there will be an exhibit opening next March at the museum titled Guarding the Art, which will be curated by 17 members of the museum's security staff. The hope is that the exhibit is able to draw on more diverse perspectives. That's all the time we have for this week. You've been listening to art since you can find the show on Apple Podcasts, iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher Radio, Spotify or your favorite podcast app. If you've enjoyed this podcast, be sure to subscribe. And while you're there, please rates show and leave a quick review. Your feedback is the key to other folks finding us. If you'd like to see images related to the conversation, read a transcript and find other bonus features. You can go to Canvia Art. And click on the Podcast tab. If you'd like to reach out to me, you can email me at Craig at Canvia. Art, thanks for listening. Do.

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